Whether you’re a student, emerging professional, or seasoned museum leader, this webinar will help you chart your next career move with confidence. Watch career management experts Greg Stevens, Founding Principal of Purple Cow Career and Talent Development, Alli Schell, Your Museum Career Coach, Chris Morehead, Director of Experience and Operations at Newfields, and Ariel Waldman, Project Manager at AAM, for an engaging conversation on where to find job postings, how to present yourself authentically, and how to make connections that last.

Transcript

Cecelia Walls:

Welcome, everyone. I’m gonna wait just another or so to let everyone get into the room. But we’ll get started in just a minute. Thank you so much for joining us for insights into making museum career moves. I’m Cecelia Walls, assistant director of learning content and operations here at AAM. And whether you’re exploring new directions in your museum career or looking to grow where you are, this session is designed to offer advice, inspiration, and some real world strategies. We’re honored to be joined by a very dynamic panel of professionals who bring a wide range of experience and insights.

Greg Stevens is founding principal of Purple Cow Career and Talent Development and is a seasoned career strategist with deep roots in museum education and professional development. He’s known for helping individuals and organizations navigate change with creativity and purpose.

Allie Shell, also known as your museum career coach, specializes in guiding museum professionals through career transitions, resume building, and interview preparation. With over a decade of experience in museum education, programming, and professional development, Allie brings an approachable teaching style, love of small museums, and advocacy for more equitable hiring practices.

Chris Moorhead is director of experience in operations at Newfields and leads teams focused on visitor engagement, operational excellence, and inclusive experiences. His work bridges the gap between strategic planning and day to day museum operations, and he has guided a number of hiring teams.

Ariel Waldman is our learning project manager here at AAM, and she supports initiatives that strengthen the museum workforce and promote equity and access across the field. Her background includes project coordination, adult education, and advocacy for emerging museum professionals. And as one of our newest hires here, she has a unique perspective on the current hiring landscape.

So this promises to be a very lively conversation, and we encourage you to engage in the chat, ask questions in the q and a, take advantage of this opportunity to connect and learn.

We are recording this session, but you can post questions anonymous in the q and a section. And we also received a few questions ahead of time that I’ll be posting in the q and a section, so feel free to go in and review those and upvote the ones that you’re especially interested in hearing your response to.

Let’s dive in. For Greg, I’ll hand things over to you.

Ariel Waldman:

Hey, everyone.

Greg Stevens:

Hi, everyone. Welcome. We’re really glad to have you joining us today, and I am very excited to be with this group of people to talk about one of my favorite topics and that is museum careers. So Ariel, Ali, Chris, thanks a lot for joining me in this conversation. And it for all of you folks who are attending, in planning this conversation, we’ve decided on two main things. Right? One is this is a conversation. So we’re gonna spend the first part of our program having a conversation with each other, as panelists, talking about some of the key themes that have emerged in our own professional practice, whether we’re career coaches, or newly hired professionals, or leading up organization operations. We’re gonna spend the first half an hour talking about some career related themes. And then we’re gonna turn the stage and the conversation over to addressing some of the questions and comments that came in before this program, but also, of course, in the chat box. We may not get to everything. But we’re gonna do our best to get to as many as we can. And at the end of the program, Cecilia, I think that you are going to paste into the chat box our respective email addresses. And we’ve all decided that if you have lingering questions or something that is just on your mind, please email any one of us, and we’ll be happy to respond. Respond to that.

Alli Schell:

Hello.

Greg Stevens:

Alright. So that’s the lay of the land for our program.

I’m gonna start off the our thematic approach with the, the big elephant in the room, which is this very volatile and uncertain land that we’re in, on every level. Right? Politically, economically, and all of it, trickles down to the museum field, whether it’s, many of our colleagues who are have been laid off or who are on hold because of government shutdown or any kind of reason where people may have been separated from their jobs or, desperate to get out of a job or desperate to find a job right out of school. So we just wanted to acknowledge that this is a very uncertain time.

That’s really important framing device, I think. For our conversation, but for all of you who might be considering some kind of career transition. So that’s my that’s what I’m gonna start with, and I’m just gonna turn it over to, any of my colleagues here what are your thoughts about the volatility and uncertainty of the landscape we’re in right now?

Alli Schell:

I just think it’s important to have options. I’ll go first. But I also would love to hear from Ariel and Chris as navigators also of it. So, you know, I think sometimes we think that in the museum field, we also we have to have very closely aligned museum related experience. And I think some of that streams into, you know, looking at job descriptions and seeing components of roles that you’re interested in. Are there transferable skills? Right? So maybe you’re looking at a role that or striving for a role. That has management experience.

Sure. You might wanna get it closely aligned to museums, but can you get management experience elsewhere? Are there other skills for revolving that or other fields that you can look that are also parallel to museums? So I think having a couple options being okay with potentially leaving the fields or going out a bit and coming back in with a good explanation. I’m a big explainer on resumes and, well, helping people explain things on resumes and cover letters. If you’re gonna make an option, if you’re gonna make a jump, why did you do it?

Even if you have to, you know, give a little give a little extra to that. But, I think I am just being very intentional with steps that you take and thinking about how you maybe you plan to leave or potentially, move on from the field. It’s just to start.

Chris Morehead:

Yeah. I think from my from my perspective, you know, working in an institution that’s actively operating, if you’re a job seeker and you’re out there, you’re looking, look at all the different types of institutions that are out there. Newfield is a big one. We have lots of seasonal experience, and opportunities both in security and customer service as well as culinary arts, during the holiday season. So if you’re looking to get your feet wet or looking for an opportunity to explore and try something new, look at some of the bigger, you know, cultural institutions whether it be museum, botanical garden, or otherwise. But don’t discount your smaller institutions as well. They have and are robust in the amount of experience you’re gonna get working for a smaller institution because you have to wear so many different hats those are great places for you to really hone your skills and diversify your skill sets. And maybe Trey try on some different responsibilities that you might not have otherwise had an opportunity to get to experience in those institutions. So don’t just narrow your search to the exact specific type of institution. That you dream about working for, that, you know, has been the penultimate of your career right away. Many of us have been in the field for a long time, and it took it takes a while to get up to, you know, to get that and snag that dream role from that dream institution.

But all along the way, having incredible experiences and bringing those experiences with you will make you better served when you finally get to that that point where you can snag that dream job.

Ariel Waldman:

I’ll just add when talking about this kind of volatile time. I graduated from my museum education master’s, 2020 at the height of the pandemic. And when I was going through my master’s, it’s a kind of thing where we thought, you know, museums will always be here. Museums will always be successful. There’s always going to be jobs. And so during the pandemic, that there was also a downturn. And so coming to terms with what was it that I needed, in order to best support my life. So of those jobs may be in the museum field, and some of them weren’t. I my ultimate goal was to find a job that I could support myself with. That maybe then further down the line, I could apply those skills into museum spaces. My first job out of grad school was in a military museum, which is something that was never on my radar at all. But I learned so much from that experience that I still talk about to this day, and I’m able to apply what I learned to my work at AAM, my work in other institutions. And so I would just say, like Allie and have said, to really take a holistic view of the landscape and of also what your goals are ultimately. If your goals are learning a lot, if your goals are supporting yourself and your family and learning a lot or, really getting into volunteer work, or volunteer management. Looking at roles through that lens to really fulfill what your goals are.

Greg Stevens:

Yeah. Ariel, I’m so first of all, you and I have something in common. Right? We are both graduates of the museum education program at the George Washington University. I came to the Museum Ed program with a design background. I’ve been teaching art for ten years at an elementary school. I thought for sure that my museum career was gonna be in an art museum. And guess what? Twenty five years later, I’ve never worked in an art museum. My first internship and my first museum job was at the Air and Space Museum, which was an amazing experience. And I learned an awful lot about it. I learned a lot about audience engagement. Yes. I learned about aircraft and spacecraft, but what I really learned was about the history, the people stories, behind the aircraft and the spacecraft.

And, you know, so that was how I got my career started. In something that was not at all an art museum.

And I’ve taught graduate students in various institutions, and, inevitably, there’s somebody who really just wants to be the curator at the Met.

Right? That’s what they’re gonna be. And I say, great. More power to you. You may end up being a curator at The Met.

Chris Morehead:

So

Greg Stevens:

But the reality is you’re probably not gonna start out being a curator at the Met. You’re probably gonna do what Chris mentioned, and you’re gonna find a job in a small institution. Where not only do you have to wear many hats, but you have the opportunity to wear many hats, where you get this opportunity to learn all about different aspects, whether it’s exhibition development or education or curatorial or registrar or selling postcards at the visitor counter. Right? So this this opportunity of flexibility and options I think, is critical.

And the last thing I’ll say about this is, yes, we’re in a very volatile uncertain time. But the museum field is always in a volatile uncertain time.

I’ve been in the field for twenty five years. I came into the field right about the time of 09:11. And then later on in my career, the economic downturn, and then the pandemic, and now all of this. So there’s never gonna be a shortage of uncertainty and volatility. And, Ali, as you pointed out, that probably your best approach is to be flexible and adaptable.

In in your approach. Okay. Let’s shift gears just a little bit. And let’s talk about what job search looks like.

Right? My big framing point here about job search wherever you happen to be, whether you’re right out of school or just getting started in your museum career or somewhere in your career and you’re learning you’re looking to, move up or feel like you need to move out of your institution for whatever reason, Or I think we had a couple of questions come in earlier, folks who are senior level and thinking about retiring and, gosh, what’s next? Right?

So job search you know, if I had a whiteboard right now, I would I would draw a pie chart.

Chris Morehead:

I’d love to tag her on that. Relationships are so important. Not just in the job search, but also in your profession. I built peer networks both locally here in Indianapolis but also nationwide that have really helped support not just my work, but the work of our institution, up and through the pandemic, leaning on one another How do we stay open? How do we reopen? Know, new variants were coming out. We’re trying to navigate it in real time together. So I can’t lean into how important those relationships are and will be not just to start your career, but to keep it going and then to figure out what’s next. You know, I serve a lot of different individuals here at Newfields and work cross departmentally with a lot of different people. And we all build our networks quite wide. And anytime someone is connected to another organization or takes on another responsibility or even a new job. We’re excited to see that and like Greg said, most of those are through those relationships that you’ve built. How do you form those relationships? Where do you go for If you’re lucky enough to be able to go attend a conference or a workshop or a summit, get out there and get connected to people through those professional development and networking opportunities. Things like this. You’re attending one today. Congratulations. This is one of those steps that you can take in the right direction. There’s plenty of other online resources if you aren’t one of those people that gets to go to those things in in person. You can still engage and network in these. The AAM just did the museum summit, two day summit that was reasonably priced for people to be able to engage and learn and connect with one on you’ve got a lot of local associations like the Midwest museums, association, lots of different organizations of that nature that can help connect you locally in the region that you’re in. And don’t forget, just because you’re not in that region, maybe that’s a region you aspire to be in. You too can attend those meetups, especially online and heck, if you’re in the area in person, I would encourage you to attend those as well because I guarantee you, they’re gonna welcome you with open arms. So think about all the different ways that you can build your network and, like, literally just get out there and do it. It’s scary. You’re nervous at first, but everybody’s been in that exact same spot as you. And when you walk through that door or walk into that first chat room, there’s gonna be people there to engage you and welcome you.

Greg Stevens:

Yeah. I’m laughing as you’re talking, Chris, because when I was in graduate school, that spring semester, and, this is in the olden days. When we actually mailed out resumes and such.

Chris Morehead:

Oh, gosh.

Greg Stevens:

But I used to note that I was making paper airplanes of my resume and just sending them out and not really getting any traction. And one of my classmates said, you really need to network.

And I said, here’s the punchline, I don’t have time to network. I have to find a job. Because I didn’t I didn’t get it. I didn’t get it at all with this thing of networking or connecting or relationship. Building was all about. And now I am actually a pretty good network or but, the one thing I will say, and then I’ll let you all continue conversation.

Chris Morehead:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Greg Stevens:

Networking and relationship building is never about asking for a job. I know it seems completely counterintuitive You might be looking for a job. You might be looking to get out of your job, whatever. It’s never about asking somebody for a job or sniffing at a job or hinting, you know, maybe they have a job.

It’s never about that. It’s about relationship building. Right? If you’re looking for a job in an art museum, then find somebody who works in an art museum and set up a thirty minute call with them to find out more about their work. And more about their institution and maybe some tips or maybe they share some challenges. That’s what it’s about.

But it’s not about asking for a job.

Alli Schell:

Yeah. No. I wanna echo Chris and Greg Absolutely. I always stress that networking is not about what you can get out of it. And I think sometimes that’s where the icky thing the icky feeling happens with networking where you think it’s transactional. And sure. Maybe down the road, it could end up that way. Maybe someone that has a job they can offer could connect you to someone. But I think it’s really important to do things like peer to peer networking. I think a lot of times, we also think that networking has to be, like, almost in an imbalance of, like, I have to go to someone in a role greater than me. It doesn’t have to be that way.

The peer to peer networking is, like, the bread and butter of what I love to do when I was working in a museum. Mainly because I wanted a support system. In a small museum, I was like, I need help. Wanna connect with other people that are doing public programs. And, honestly, that was the best network I could have created because we all looked out for each other. We all idea shared. And if you don’t have a network, like, I just formed a little group. So create one. So I work with and created, like, a group of all these other museum educators. In the area. And we met maybe quarterly and just shared things online, as we needed help. So something to think about. And, like, if you don’t have a network, create one.

And even if you’re not someone that likes to be social out there, there are a lot of networking opportunities. Again, just to, like, pull on some threads that you all have been saying So, yeah, if you’re not an in person networker, this is great. You guys are networking in the comments section. Section. There’s also some really good Facebook groups. LinkedIn, I think, honestly, one of the best uses for LinkedIn in the field is the networking aspect, and the job search aspect, I think it also acts like a mini job board. So, use utilize it. Even if you’re just liking posts, Right? You can you can max out LinkedIn as much as you want, or you can be commenting and posting things But don’t feel like that is, like, the ultimate way you have to be active on LinkedIn. Like, will actually notice people that like my post a lot even if you never comment on there. Soif you wanna connect with thought leaders in the fields or even people in similar situations, like, use LinkedIn. It’s where the field is kinda at. At the moment. There’s probably some other places too. But some easy ways to kinda network and think about where you’re comfortable in. So if you like virtual, if you’re not really an in person, do that. If you’re an in person, go to a conference.

Or, you know, find other meetups or make a meetup. You know, I always see lots of, like, local, emerging museum professional meetups. I even like attending those. I love the emerging museum professionals group on Facebook, and I’m no longer an emerging professional. But I see so much information sharing on there. I think it’s such a great resource. So anyway, just my two cents on networking.

Ariel Waldman:

I love that, Ali. I just wanna, add on to LinkedIn is that that’s also where I see so I learn so much from what people are sharing about their own institutions, about their own learnings. And Ali has a great LinkedIn. I’ll give her a plug. Where she posts jobs and all sorts of things. So I love LinkedIn for that purpose. I will say that if you’re gonna connect with somebody, maybe because you follow their work or you’re really excited to talk to them or what they’re doing or are interested in their career path. If you’re going to connect, to write a little note about why you’re interested in connecting and instead of just sending out a blank connect request because that really allows for more of that two way street. And I think that really starts to form that relationship where that’s something that you can then respond to. And, yeah, I think that also conferences are amazing. I like to think of conferences as kind of like the first day of college or something. Like, everybody is there for that purpose. Everybody nobody you know, everybody has, you know, maybe some friends or something, but everybody’s there to meet other people. And so really take advantage of and don’t be afraid to go up to somebody. Maybe you recognize them from online or you know, just somebody who looks cool and is wearing a cool museum t shirt.

That’s why we’re all there is to connect with like minded people. So don’t be afraid to put yourself out there.

Greg Stevens:

Yeah.

As we’re, you know, as we’re talking about this, I when I worked at AAM, for ten years, and I used to do some career sessions, I would tell people, if you wanna make connections at the conference, stand in the busiest intersection of the convention hall with your program book open up, and look lost and confused and anxious and whatever, somebody’s gonna come up and help you out. So there’s that.

Chris Morehead:

100% sure.

Greg Stevens:

We’re talking about LinkedIn, which may or may not be everybody’s cup of tea. Right? Some people are, you know, active LinkedIn users, some people not at all, some people kind of in the middle. I was reflecting on a couple of things. First of all, I posted about this program yesterday on LinkedIn.

Right? All of you, Ariel, Ali, and Chris, reposted it which was great. And then all of a sudden, like, 57 people liked the post. And I looked at the 57 people, I don’t I know some of them, but I don’t know all of them. And then I started getting request connect. To your point, Ariel. Right? Just people, like, wanted to connect, like, I have no idea who this person is. I’m not inclined to accept everybody. I mean, I guess I could, but why? To your point, Ariel, make a give me a little note. Say, you know what? I really liked the thing that you posted. Or I’m really interested in hearing more from you. I wondered if you, you know, might have thirty minutes to have a conversation. Absolutely. Do that instead of just blindly connecting. The last thing I’ll say about LinkedIn, and this will be a great segue into another, talking point here. It is an essential tool.

Whether or not you’re an active user or not, whether you believe in it or not, people will go there. Right? If you’re setting up an informational interview with somebody at a museum that you’re interested in learning more about, they’re gonna go to LinkedIn and see what you’re about.

They’re just, well, you’re applying for a job. A recruiter is gonna go look for you at on LinkedIn and see what you have to say about yourself. And what other people have to say about you if you have a recommendation section. As I encourage you to have.

If you are you have an interview coming up and there’s a hiring manager or a panel, Those people are gonna go to your LinkedIn. So it really is a critical tool. Okay. It is also connected to the other most critical tool, and that is your resume.

Right?

Ali, I know you and I, do a lot of work with clients in our respective coaching practice, on resumes. Chris, I’m sure you see a lot of resumes come across your desk.

Ariel, I’m sure you, put a lot of resumes out into the ether. So I think we all have a lot to say about resumes. My key points about resumes as a critical tool

Ariel Waldman:

Yes.

Greg Stevens:

Number one, you gotta keep it up to date.

Number two, all that documentation of your projects and accomplishments this is where the rubber hits the road. Right? This is the document that communicates all those accomplishments. The resume, needs to be customized for every job you apply for.

I didn’t know that when I was in graduate school.

Which is also why I didn’t get a lot of responses back from my resume back in the day. So you’ve got to customize it for every job. Down to the exact keywords and phrases. If you’re gonna make it through what is known as an applicant tracking system with a lot of institutions larger institutions use before a human being ever sees it. And it is also a way to capture three key things. Your hard skills, meaning what you know how to do, whatever it is, your soft skills, how you go about doing it, often people and process things, and your impact.

Why do you do what you do, and what impact do you have on your institution on your audiences, on the field?

So it’s not only a history of your work, whether it’s professional work or academic, and accomplishments, but it is also your hard skills, soft skills, and your impact. So that’s my quick tutorial on your resume. Ali, what do you what do you see from your clients when you’re working with them on resumes?

Alli Schell:

I’m very opinionated about resumes, for better or for worse. So, no. So many good points. Such a good overview of resumes, and I know that you have opinions too, Greg. I am someone that hates a one page resume, and I know that’s a little controversial to say.

For this field. I will say for this field. Right? So other fields, other jobs, sure. One page resume work. And this is why I am against it. Is because you spend as the person constructing it your time focusing on cutting things out and formatting to try and fit everything onto a page. And that is and I think a lot about what waste time for job seekers. Right? You’re applying to so many positions. What’s gonna save time and also let you maximize your time and your space on your resume to really showcase your skills. So that is why I’m giving you permission in my world to go on to that second page And for even some people, yes, I’m sorry. This is very controversial. Go on to that third page. I know that’s maybe a little too much. But, I know. I know. I’m out there with this, but I just feel like the field loves to see all the things that you do, within reason. Right? So, yes, there is some brevity that needs to happen, but also sticking to those keywords, to make sure you’re hitting what is in job descriptions but also making sure you are highlighting your skills So, again, pulling some threads from earlier. Right? So making sure that you have measurables in there. Are you are you really demonstrating what, how you accomplish something or what you help the organization do. I think that’s another layer that people don’t think about is I just did this job because it’s part of my role.

What were you helping the organization with? It doesn’t have to be something big and grand. It could be hey. I was fulfilling a grant to, rehouse objects in the collection.

Or, you know, I was, creating you know, just doing a public program in order to reach a different audience. So I think there’s ways that we have to kinda, like, remove ourselves from, like, like, put ourselves a little bit above our resume and just think bigger picture. And really, you know, how we did something, how much, how often. Other ways that we can kinda add some weight to what we did can really make you stand out, stand out on there. But anyway, I could go on tangents about resumes all day. I gotta pull myself out, but, essentially, that’s that’s my key thing. And I like a single column resume. Please do not do a double column. That is my personal opinion. It a waste space. If you see that that between the two columns, that’s all that space wasted where you can talking about yourself

Greg Stevens:

Yeah.

Yeah.

Alli Schell:

Two, the applicant tracking systems, maybe you’re saying that, Greg, it kinda gets gunked up when it tries to convert it over. And three, as someone who reads tons of resumes, it’s so much easier to read a single column resume. It looks nice. I’m like, just do that.

Greg Stevens:

Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So you and I could probably duke it out over the one, two, or three page resume. So I won’t even I won’t even go there. What I will say though, I mean, your points are absolutely right on. But what I will say is the here’s the reality.

Alli Schell:

Alrighty.

Greg Stevens:

Thirty seconds,

Alli Schell:

Mmmm.

Greg Stevens:

That’s how much time a human being is gonna spend looking at your resume.

They may not get to even the lower half of the first page, They’re certainly not gonna get to the second page or the third page. If you don’t have a really powerful summary up top that gets at your skills and your impact and your accomplishments, that draws people’s attention to what comes after. Then nobody’s gonna pay any attention to it. Chris, I know that you probably see a lot of Rose resumes. Yeah?

Chris Morehead:

So many. And it all very wise. I I’m not opposed to any length of a resume, to be honest. One page, two pages, or three pages. What I think matters most in in the spaces that I operate in is what’s the top and what’s to the left. I I’m also getting my as my friends here know, I’m getting my MBA from Notre Dame right now, so I’ve decided to go back to school. To do that. And with that, some really great career coaching and just professional development. Uncanny to anything I’ve ever had before in my life. You need to make sure that you’re not building the resume of yesterday. We live in an AI enabled world, and AI filters are a real thing that are being utilized right and left. How many nine people spend when they actually get your resume in their hand? Thirty seconds, that’s about right. So what are you putting at the top, and what are you loading to the left? People read left to right.

Are you putting your accomplishments in those hard numbers and facts and figures that the impact of what you’ve done I recommend loading that to the left hand side. Put that right up top. In everything that you do. Like, don’t feel like you need to do the kitchen sink resume.

There’ll be time to talk through all the things that you’ve done and the nuances of your position. What are the top things that you’re proud of that you’ve accomplished in that role? What’s the impact of the things that you have accomplished in in your work in those different roles? That you’re highlighting on your resume. I would encourage you to think about prioritizing those over the laundry list of things that we all know that we do. We all know everybody’s overworked underpaid, and has a million different hats that you’re wearing. We get that. What are the things you’re most proud of? Those are the things that I care about as you know, somebody that advises and lives over hiring managers.

That helps participate in the hiring process. What are those things that that come to the top? Because once you get past that first round, and we invite you in to talk with us, that’s when you really get to dive in and unveil the entire full picture. Your resume really needs be something that’s gonna be the bait that somebody snacks and says, yes. I wanna learn more and talk more with that person.

Ariel Waldman:

I don’t know how to follow that.

Greg Stevens:

What do you think, Ariel?

Ariel Waldman:

I don’t know how to follow that. That was a mic drop moment.

Alli Schell:

I was giving you space.

Ariel Waldman:

But, yes, I completely agree. I think that’s something that when I was looking over my resume, which you might be asking, like Greg said, do I really have to change my resume for every yes? You do have to adjust your resume, and you can have a giant list of, you know, all of your different bullets and things, but it’s about translating your resume for the people who are reading it to understand. Some of us call it fundraising. Some of us call it development. Some of us call it advancement. And it’s

Chris Morehead:

Yep.

Ariel Waldman:

really about putting it in language that the hiring manager will understand at a deeper level. And I think what Chris said about impact is and I think, Ellie, you mentioned it to you, is so important. It’s not just what you did, but it’s the so what of that. What does that mean? How did you benefit the institution? How many people did you reach? How much money did you raise? Because then I think hiring managers can say, oh, and then that person can do that here for us. And so that’s kind of the bait that you can then talk further about.

And numbers are so, so important. And I know that, sometimes we don’t Greg was talking about this to us a little earlier. Sometimes we don’t write things down. We’re, you know, we’re doing a program, and then we’re doing the thing, and then we’re doing the next thing. But it’s so important one, for your resume, but also for yourself to say, wow. I did that.

For perhaps performance review, but also just so you can say, yeah. I did that. And I’m proud of myself for that, is really taking the time after a program after a volunteer training, after, you know, a big fundraising campaign to say, okay. And what happened because of my efforts? And that’s what you can really put in your resume and I think that’s what people are really interested in when they’re reading.

Greg Stevens:

Oh, yeah. And you know what, Ariel?

The So What. I, of course, I love the big So What. Right? And that’s what the resume is about, and the numbers count. I remember many years ago, I taught classes at the National Building Museum for four years. Sort of straddling my graduate program.

And when I was working on my resume a little bit after that, I had not kept track of all of those numbers. Right? And I was sitting down, and I was thinking, okay. I’ve worked there for four years, I taught about five classes a week.

Okay? I worked about forty weeks a year. There were about 30 kids in each of the classes. It was like a math problem for me. And then I added it all up, and then all of a sudden, I had a series of bullets on my resume that talked about the 150 programs that I taught, the6,000 students that I reached, oh, you know, all of that adds up.

And there it was on paper, and it’s legit.

The benefit of that is I only had to do that head scratching once. Right? I never had to recall it again because there it is on paper. And Chris, you brought up a really good point. And one last little talking point first, for us, and then I wanna, shift it over to some questions from our

Chris Morehead:

Yep.

Greg Stevens:

participants. And that is this idea of the interview or of getting through the interview. The whole purpose of your resume is to get an interview.

Right? You might think the resume is to get a job, but, really, the resume is to get an interview.

And your success in whatever first interview, the screening interview, or get it through the hoop jumping of applicant tracking systems, is to get you to the next round of interviews, to get you to the next round. And it’s all a process of elimination. Right? 100 people applied for the job. Applicant tracking system whittled it down to 25. You might get a screening interview, and then it’s gonna be 10, then it’s gonna be three, and then hopefully, it’s you. Right? So what you say about yourself in your resume, in your LinkedIn is really critical to getting you to the interview.

Then when you get to the interview, you can talk a little more expansively about the things that you’ve done. And I characterize interviews in in over simplified way. Right? There’s always gonna be the questions of like, getting to know you. Tell me about yourself. What are you looking for in your next opportunity? Why does this job excite you?

Why should we hire you? Those kinds of questions. Then there’s gonna be the specific questions, the experience questions that we call behavior based interview questions. Right? Where people are gonna ask you, tell me about your experience with x, y, or z. Tell me about a time when you did x, y, or z. And you have to be prepared to talk about those things. Right? You need to be prepared to talk about yourself, and then talk about your experience and your accomplishments. There will always be challenge questions.

Right, that tell us about a time you worked on a project that didn’t turn out. How did you react? Tell us about a time you had a challenge with a colleague or a direct report. How did you react to it? Those kinds of things. Now So the interview process can be, terrifying for some people, but the key takeaways are be prepared and be yourself. Any thoughts from you folks about the interview?

Alli Schell:

I always tell people to going along with that, like, come up with your core stories. Right? So in any interview, you’re gonna have these core stories that are essential to your experience that you’re gonna wanna share. And while, yes, it’s good to, like, perfectly answer questions maybe that you come up with, questions based off of the job description, which is the key to everything, Please always save your job description for any job you apply for. Just you can delete it later, like, delete it after several months. But, really, that is the road map to everything. So if there’s one thing you get away, from me talking is save job descriptions. But, come over the core stories, because you’re gonna pull multiple stories off of that. Right? So you coming telling us time that you developed an exhibition start to finish, you’re gonna get stories about collaboration, about teamwork, about design, about maybe working with vendors or contractors. So many different things are wrapped up in one story, and I’m rather you spend the energy doing that than perfectly answering individual questions. So that’s just one thing to think about when prepping for interviews is what are your top stories around leadership, around key things that you know that you’re gonna get asked about.

Chris Morehead:

I also try and throw in a thread that can kinda connect back in whatever stories I’m telling. To a bigger story. What’s the most important thing they’re looking for in an individual? And how can I make those stories not only answer the question that they just asked, but then tie back into that bigger picture of the story that I’m telling about myself you’ll be telling about yourself as the best candidate in the room? Why they need to hire you right now. Like, that really should all, in a perfect world, tie together real nicely, and your resume should help support that too.

Ariel Waldman:

I’ll just say that I think sometimes in interviews, we can get nervous. Of course, we are, especially if, you know, we’re putting all this time and energy and effort into, job searching. We get that interview and, you know, it’s really exciting. So I would just say to make sure that you are present for that experience and that when you’re asked a question, you answer what is being asked. I think sometimes we get really wrapped up in our stories or we get really nervous, but to just be present and to, answer the question that is being asked and not necessarily what you wanna tell them because that might come later on. And, you know, if you may be have trouble remembering it or it’s a long question, I know I’ve been in situations where they’ll ask, like, a three part question. It’s okay to ask them to repeat it. It’s okay to bring a notebook and write down pieces of the question. That’s something that I’ll do a lot. Just

Chris Morehead:

Yes.

Ariel Waldman:

because I can’t I’m nervous. I’m amped up. I practice. I’ve done all my research, but, making sure that you are best supporting yourself in that situation. Whether that’s having a notebook or asking for clarification if you’re not sure what the question is.

Greg Stevens:

Yeah. Great, great thoughts, Ariel.

When I think about, helping my clients prepare for interviews, I remind them of what I have now started calling my five c’s.

Be clear, be concise,

Be compelling.

Be consistent.

Be convincing.

So answer the questions clearly.

Do it in as few words as possible because you only have, you know, thirty minutes or whatever.

Be compelling. What story you have to tell, compel them. Capture their attention. Be consistent, making sure that what you said about your yourself in your resume is consistent with what you say about yourself in your interview. And convincing. Convince them that you’re the right person for the job. Or at least convince them that they need to bring you back for another round of interviews. So the five c’s, clear,

Chris Morehead:

Yeah. I think it’s really important, especially if you’re green or newer to supervisor or your leadership skills to leverage any opportunity that you can get or you are given to show those skills sets. That may not even be in the position you’re in. That could be through volunteerism outside of your institution. Maybe you’re on a board. Maybe you volunteer, for another institution or you’ve helped another institution in a in a significant way. Those are other ways that people can start to see a new things you can do to help build your resume if you just don’t have those opportunities right in front of you. I would encourage anybody that is interested in getting their feet wet or building their skill sets and supervise your roles to talk to your boss. Let them know. Do they know that you’re interested in doing that? Do they know that you really want to help in a bigger, greater way? Do you feel like you know, you’re too trapped in your role? Have that conversation with your boss and let them know, whoever your supervisor is, let them know that you’re interested in taking on more or taking on an interest in a particular job or maybe there’s a project that’s going on or an initiative. That the institution is going through that you would be interested in leading that charge or helping to be a part of leading that charge?

Greg Stevens:

concise, compelling, consistent, convincing. Okay. We have just about, you know, fifteen or so minutes left. I wanna shift gears to some questions from folks, and there’s a whole bunch. We obviously won’t get to all of them. But, again, if you wanna reach out to us at the end, our emails will be our email addresses will be made available to you. One question that caught my attention that seemed to be quite relevant given where we are in the world, and I work with a lot of clients on this, and that is, what you do when you’ve been laid off. Right? I do a lot of outplacement coaching with clients right now, folks who have been separated from their positions for whatever reason. And so that’s a big thing. I wanna spend just a moment with you folks talking about this.

My approach my first approach is you need to let yourself go through the grief.

Right? Whatever you might be feeling. I’ve certainly been I know what it feels like to be laid off.

Right? And I went through all the stages of grief. I was angry, and then I was depressed, and frustrated, and then angry again, and then depressed again, and then frustrate I mean, cycling through it all. So just know that if you’ve been laid off or separated from your job, it you’re gonna feel it and you just need to give yourself permission to feel whatever you need to feel, at that moment. And then you need to brush yourself off and get going.

Right? You need to get to it because the reality is three to six months is about the average time for you to find a job. That’s what we know. So you gotta get going now, and that means getting your materials together, whether it’s your LinkedIn or your resume, how you’re approaching job search, how you’re, reaching out and connecting with people. Now is the time to do it. Anybody have any thoughts about that?

Alli Schell:

I just wanna put out there that looking for a job is a full time job and acknowledging that because, to go off your point right there, I mean, there’s materials get together. It is so much work. So I know for some of the people that I work with too, like, that’s all they’re doing. And they feel bad because they’re like, I don’t have time for anything else. And just wanna acknowledge that that’s okay. Like, I think there was a time now, you know, you guys might have different opinions about gaps on resumes. But I think the pandemic, for better or for worse, and I think current situation too with the job market, has sort of eliminated maybe the pressure that was on gaps before when I was first entering the scene. I think what might give people more red flags is if you’re job hunting. Job hopping from multiple roles that aren’t, like, a contracted role that has a deadline or you’re an intern or something, you know, that has clear deadlines or clear end marks to the role.

But certainly too, I mean, there are options to kinda show that you are still kind of invested in the museum field. I mean, you can use this to post on LinkedIn, to post thoughts, to be active on there, to build your networks. You know, Substack’s and other places are great areas. Like, everyone has something contribute. I will always say this. Even if you’re emerging professional, you have thoughts and opinions that I think the field wants to hear. So you can use this time to build a personal brand. You can also I’m trying to build sort of a spreadsheet of all different forms of professional development. There’s so many great free resources out there. Obviously, AM has a ton. So if there’s something within your skill set, like you’re looking at jobs that you’re applying to, know, match up and see, like, hey. Maybe I need more. They need me to learn more about NAGPRA. Seeing a lot of NAGPRA jobs out there. Maybe I need to get some training on that. So there’s, you know, online trainings that you can do in the meantime. So don’t feel like you have to be productive. I just wanna put that capitalism makes us feel like that way, but you know, there are some other options to kinda show and demonstrate hey. I’m still keeping up with the fields. I’m trying.

Ariel Waldman:

I just wanna follow-up what Ali said about looking for a job is a full time job or it can be. And so I think that sometimes, and this goes for anyone laid off or not. We can get very lost in that. And so it’s important to try to find joy outside of job searching. Connecting with your family and friends, you know, Yeah. Ara, you mentioned something so important. Many years ago after my position was eliminated, I had a career coach at that time, which was a transformative experience for me. And one of the key things that my coach helped me understand was this idea of and, the power of and. Things don’t have to be either or. You can look for a job in a very strategic way and you can start building connections, and you can reconnect with a hobby of some sort, and you can volunteer in your community. And I did all of those things. Right? I started volunteering in my community garden, and I started reconnecting with colleagues. I started working on my next book. All the things to remind me who I who I am as a whole person and not to be defined by the separation of my job. Chris, I wanna shift gears here and throw a question to you that came in, the idea of, how do you pitch supervisory skills and, to move up into a larger institution when, sometimes people in those institutions don’t see, the connection. Right? They don’t see that the scale transferability. Any thoughts about that?

Chris Morehead:

You’re not gonna get it every time, so don’t be disappointed when you don’t, and don’t that they’re gonna think less of you for putting your name out there or putting your foot forward. If anything, that lets them know who they can count on from the bench, The next time an opportunity comes up that that you’re someone that might be able to be considered for that type of position and that type of role. If you find yourself completely in a in a space where there’s just no space to move up, you might need to consider actually going to another institution to find that job or find that perfect role for you. You know, one of the great things about our small and institutions is that you wear a lot of hats and you get a lot of skills, but unfortunately, at the end of the day, there’s not a lot of opportunity to move up. Sometimes it’s just two people, and that means somebody’s gotta leave or somebody’s gotta go. Right? That person might be you.

Chris Morehead:

That’s not a bad thing. Lots of people have lots of different jobs and lots of different institutions they’ve worked with and through along the way. So I encourage you not to just keep your focus on your institution. And just because you leave doesn’t mean you can’t come back. We call those boomerangs here, and we love to see that new fields When someone goes outside of the institution to get some experience, to take on a job, to take on a role, and you know what? Like, by after a little bit, another opportunity opens up, and then they apply and they come back us. And we love to see that because they bring back new skill sets and all sorts of new insight from other institutions outside too.

Greg Stevens:

Yeah. Really great.

Alli Schell:

Come on.

Greg Stevens:

Thanks, Chris.

Alli Schell:

I add a little tiny piece? Because I think that is excellent, Chris. Little tiny extra piece could be, like, board committees too. Like, an internal thing. I, like, I was like, you were so close. I was like, board committees too. And then, people forget that volunteer work outside of museums totally counts. Like, I see a lot of people that are on,

Chris Morehead:

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Thank you.

Yes.

Alli Schell:

professional museum, organizations, boards, So thinking about, like, conference committees. I’ll do a plug for AAM. Right? I’m sure you guys are always looking for additional volunteers. Those tell account. Right? Those are great leadership examples. Also, great networking examples. So that can also demonstrate, like, even still tangent to museums, but just out for the role that you’re in, but just outside of it, you can also get some leadership skills.

Chris Morehead:

Such a great call.

Greg Stevens:

Yeah. I wanted to throw a question out that came in, earlier, and that is the idea of, folks, of a certain age, if you will, folks who have been in the field for a long time, senior level, making some kind of career transition either voluntary or involuntary. And how to manage that. I have my own perspective on that having been in the field for twenty five years.

I’ve certainly, my career path has not been a straight shot. By any stretch. So if I look back on my career, it’s a series of pivots.

Right? And so for anybody who might be at a senior level, one first thing I might encourage you to do is look back and think about the pivots. Right?

And we all have some kind of pivots. Right? Almost no one I know has a straight shot in their museum careers. So looking back, reflecting and thinking holistically about the pivots and what connects all the things. Right? For me, if I look back on my previous, it was about obviously, learning or teaching.

Or creating programming of some sort. And so those are the things that connected which then, helped me think about what might be next. For some people, what might be next might be retirement or volunteering. For some people, it might be, becoming a consultant. Right? You don’t wanna work in an institution. You wanna work for yourself. You wanna work part time. So I advise people sure. You can go out and do a business plan and set up an LLC or whatever. But at its core, decide what you have to offer. Right? What you’re really good at and what you bring to the table. Who it’s for, why it’s needed, and what that might look like.

So that kind of reflection and then just very broadly framing out, where you are right now, kinda inform what might be next for you. I don’t know if anybody has any thoughts about that.

Alli Schell:

Sorry. They’re bowing in my backyard. It’s very loud. No. I think I have nothing to add. I think that’s I think that’s great, Greg.

Alright.

Here’s a question that came in. Burnout. I know we’re down to last few minutes. Museum burnout. I think we’ve all experienced it.

We all have, some sort of shared head nodding right now. What do you think? Burnout. How do people manage it?

Alli Schell:

Oh my god. I I’m really not the person to ask. As we were talking about this backstage, as a chronic burnout, but I think one of the things that we came across is boundary setting.

So, you know, really just sitting down and being like, what are my boundaries within the workplace? So, you know, I would get into this habit

Again, small museum person, so I would just, like, not even take lunch. I would just eat lunch with my desk, and not even give myself that mental break, to do that. And so I think even sometimes just little things. Right? Like, maybe, like, leaving work five minutes early or coming into work five minutes late. Like, again, not no. You can’t always do that or taking a lunch, but, I think the field often is built on obviously, it’s built on foundations of white supremacy culture. So things like urgency, perfectionism, are just baked into what we do. And I think sometimes we just have to recognize where things are coming from, why we are doing what we’re doing, and maybe things aren’t as urgent or as pressing as they think. Like, yes, In some ways, they are, but I think a lot of that is self prescribed within our own workplaces. So I think it might be some self meditation onto, like, what is what is really on fire and what isn’t truly on fire.

Oh, that was really helpful, but it’s at least how I’ve been thinking about burnout from my own personal perspective.

Chris Morehead:

I’ll throw a couple out there.

So often we get back in the work, and a lot of us have ended up at a desk for majority of our day. Get out from behind your desk and go back and touch the grass that’s outside. Look at the yard. Go for the exhibition. Remind yourself and reconnect with what you actually do and the impact. So often, you know, I get stuck behind the desk for a while. I just love watching people enjoy our spaces and the things that we do. Take some time to go appreciate that. And if you need to just get out of your space, I’ll off your campus, go do that too. Go see other institutions. Don’t forget you’re in this industry because you love museums, not just your own. There’s others out there too. Go explore those and free your mind at that. But that that’s some of the best advice I can help you with. The other part of things to what Ali was saying, don’t be afraid to say no.

We are such pleasers, and we wanna do it all. But you cannot do it all. And, honestly, you’re doing a disservice to yourself. And to the work that you need to be doing by saying yes to everything. You need to say no.

Greg Stevens:

Yeah. You know what? I, a colleague of mine many years ago, said something to me that always sticks in my mind, and that is I love museums.

But I’m not in love with museums.

Right? I love all the things that museums are and, of course, I’d come at it from a museum educator perspective.

But I’m not so in love with museums that it I mean, it has been more consuming than other times, but and the other thing is you may love museums, but museums don’t love you back.

Right? It’s just I hate to sound you know, like Debbie Downer, but it’s a reality. Right? And we’ve all come to the field because we love art or history or science or trees or whales or chill whatever it is that we love. Right? And that seems to cloud our thinking about our careers. Right? Because we’ve chosen to do this amazing work in these amazing places, that somehow that’s permission for us to not have a have a real life. Right? So to your point, Chris, get out there, be in the galleries. Go to museums. Right? I love going to museums just to go to museums. Although my friends don’t like to go to museums with me anymore because they say I try to manage their experience. So alright. I know we’re at the, at the end of our time together. Cecilia, I think you wanna probably hop in here. And close things out, but I just wanted to say thank you all Ariel, Ali, and Chris for a really nice conversation. And, of course, for those of you who asked questions, we got to as many as we could. But

Cecelia, back to you.

Alli Schell:

Thank you, Greg, for moderating.

Ariel Waldman:

Thank you, Greg, and thank you everybody for attending.

Alli Schell:

Yeah.

Ariel Waldman:

Cecilia, you are muted.

Cecelia Walls:

I went and did it myself.

Thank you all, Greg, Allie, Chris, and Ariel so much for these really valuable insights. I’m gonna go up update my resume. Right now, Thank you everyone for joining us, and we’ll see you soon.