In recent years, the US museum field has made progress in overcoming many diversity, equity, accessibility, and inclusion (DEAI) challenges. Yet, the field has much more work to do as we emerge from the shadows of our complicated shared past on issues of race, gender, sexual orientation, and abilities. In this session, panelists who helped guide the AAM strategy on DEAI in the US museum field discuss how previous AAM initiatives laid the groundwork for this important work. How we can make significant strides in a new era of openness, inclusion, equity, and social justice?

Read more about the Facing Change Initiative

Discussion guide coming soon!

Transcript

Grace Stewart:

So today we’re going to be talking about Facing Change and the DEI work related to Facing Change. We’ve been using Facing Change as an overarching term for lots of work that’s been happening. So I’m just going to share very briefly about what some of that is, just to give us some grounding, and then we’re going to jump right into discussion.

So just to share a little bit about Facing Change, it started because there was a report that came out, a Museum Board Leadership Report in 2017 that had some really stark data that we found very concerning. One of the things that we saw was that almost half of all museum Boards were 100% white. So that means they had absolutely no racial or ethnic diversity at all. But in that same report, we also saw that museum directors and Board Chairs said that diversifying their Board was very important to their ability to be sustainable, to continue on with their work, to fulfill their mission. And yet very few of them had any action plans, had any plan, had taken any steps. So there was clearly a gap between the desire to do work and actually doing the work. And so that’s a place that we thought we could step in and be supportive.

And from there, we had our Facing Change working group. We had a DEI working group that was assembled and they put together our first Facing Change Report that included several insights for how the field could be more inclusive. And then from that, we started our Facing Change program, which was a three-year initiative that was funded by Ford, Mellon and Walton. And that was an initiative where we worked with 50 different museums across the country in five different hubs, and we helped them go through a program to help them diversify their Boards to create more inclusive and equitable cultures.

And so they went through lots of training. Originally was going to be in-person. We started in 2019, and then it shifted to mostly virtual, but they continued through the program. And through that program, we added over 150 different Board members to those Boards that would be considered ethnically and racially diverse for their Board, and we’ve seen lots of improvements from there. We also, during that process, worked with an Excellence in DEI Task Force and they produced another report, which is our Excellence in DEI Report that came out ’22. And that report shared core concepts and key indicators for how we can start to measure and evaluate the DEI work that’s happening in museums. That report also included recommendations for AAM to do work internally. And so we have started that process. We now have an Excellence in DEI Steering Committee, and we are currently reviewing all of our excellence programs.

So that’s including standards, our core documents, our MAP program, accreditation, to see how we can more deeply embed DEI concepts and principles into that work and really call them forward. So we are in that year’s process. If anyone’s interested in being involved in that, we have plenty of opportunities for reviews and committees and task courses, so please just let us know. So the work has been going on for a long time and is continuing on. So that was a lot of information about where we are in grounding some of our Facing Change work.

I also want to note that that is the work that’s been happening from the AAM perspective, but we are part of a large and varied ecosystem. And so there’s been lots of work happening in this realm with lots of different groups and we have been inspired by those groups. And so I also want to say this is something that we are doing in partnership with the field at large, and I know everyone up here has had different roles that they have played. They’ve been part of that within AAM. They’ve been part of that outside of AAM, and it really does take that full collective effort.

So with that very fast introduction, let’s jump into some conversation. So the first thing I wanted us to start with was just sharing a little bit about what your role has been in doing this work and how it’s impacted your life and impacted you and your career? And we’ll just start right here with Cecile.

Cecile Shellman:

Hello. Good afternoon everyone. I’m Cecile Shellman, and I have a consulting firm that works exclusively with museums on diversity, equity, accessibility, inclusion, anti-racism and anti-oppression work. It’s a mouthful, but that really is what we do and there’s quite a need for it. And so it’s really been my pleasure to work with AAM on a number of initiatives and programs, stretching all the way back at least 10 years and more. I’ve been a member of AAM for about 20.

So I think my first role officially with AAM was as a co-Chair of DIVCOM, which was the Diversity Committee. So some of you are members of DIVCOM or have been. And back in 2014, I was asked to co-Chair with Virgil Talaid, and also with Tim Hecox. So we were a co-Chair of three and Dr. Tonya Matthews also of course served on DIVCOM, been a leader there, as well as with some Board. She’ll tell you herself and her workings. So under not only co-leadership, but with a lot of great heroes and sheroes and they rose to follow, working on that committee has been just one of the greatest joys of my life really. Just a strength and meeting some wonderful people who have always had equity at the front of their minds.

And then 2014 was a real pivot point for individuals and museums, especially after Ferguson. So that’s really when museums started to think about diversity and equity in a different way. And so it was there. Soon after that, I was called to AAM to work on a number of committees or just to have a lot of thinking opportunities and working opportunities in big and small ways. And so I think that was my start. I worked on the original Facing Change documents we had at AAM. There was a DIVCOM session where we worked with all the leaders of AAM. And then eventually, I was chosen to be one of the fellows for the Facing Change program, one of the 10 national fellows working with the 50 sites across the country for Facing Change. So I’m really honored and pleased to have worked and to continue to work on this initiative.

Stephanie Johnson-Cunningham:

Awesome. Hi, everyone. I’m Stephanie Johnson-Cunningham, founder and Executive Director of Museum Hue. We were founded about 10 years ago, and when Grace talks about outsiders, I think she was specifically talking about me in the work that we do through Museum Hue. So I’m grateful that AAM has been a friend and partner to Museum Hue in the work that we do, and specifically Museum Hue, we don’t necessarily believe in diversity, equity, and inclusion in the way that we know it and in the way that it’s practiced. We look at race very specifically in thinking about if our focus can be on race and thinking critically. We can see how there’s so much intersectionality when you focus on race. So if you focus on race, you see that there’s issues and intersectionality with being a woman, with having disabilities, all of those intersectionalities. And so we place race in the center.

Also, we aren’t necessarily talking about the inequities that is faced by people of color, but we’re making sure that black, indigenous Asian folks are the protagonists that our stories, our experience are central, thinking about the practices of our work and the institutions that we run. So historically, as we look at AAM and other museum associations, they’re talking about issues of lack of equity. They’re talking about issues of community engagement. But if you look at the practices of communities of color, we are doing much of that work. And so instead of recreating the wheel, inviting more voices and more stories into the central understanding of what museums can be, how incredible that narrative of American Alliance of Museums and Museum Hue coming together to think critically about the shaping of museums and museums of the future. Right?

So for example, Melanie, who was here, she’s in the back, is on the Board of Museum Hue, and she runs the Anacostia Community Museum here. And they had a Food Justice Exhibition and literally showing people how to talk about how supermarkets in black neighborhoods are price gouging and allowing people to see that you can change that narrative, showing the activism that people have done. So showing how museums can be relevant in our everyday experiences and not just saying, “How can we do so?” But learning from what’s already happening within these community institutions, largely called culturally specific museums by traditional standards. But we’ve really narrowed in and thinking about these institutions as culturally responsive museums. And it’s because in the way that they respond to issues that surrounding their institutions, and they move away from this idea that museums are collection-centered to community-centered, and even if they have a collection, utilizing that collection to tell a larger story and to also have a larger impact in people’s everyday experience. And I think that there’s so much to learn from that work.

And I think that instead of diversity, equity and inclusion be about placing black and brown folks in white spaces, but it really focused on how can we learn from different communities? How can we learn from these different museums? How can we have better reciprocity between our institutions? How can we learn from each other? How can we really collaborate with each other in a way that’s beneficial to our institutions? Instead of institutions saying, “Okay, all these black and brown folks, you all are over there. We want you all to come over here now. Or we want to also do community engagement work now. We want to figure out how to do that.”

Instead of saying, “Let’s look at what’s already happening, all the incredible work that’s happening. Right? Let’s tackle that and think critically about that,” instead of getting diversity, equity funding and saying… Because that literally happened to me when I was the Director of Education for the African-American Museum in Philly, people calling me with their diversity, equity, inclusion funds saying, “Hey, can I pick your brain?” No, no, you need to partner with me. I’m the expert here, not you, on diversity, equity, and inclusion. And so just really focusing on how can we support institutions, museums from a really holistic standpoint and not just think about diversity, equity, inclusion about tokenizing folks?

Dr. Tonya Mattews:

So thank you for that. And I like where we’re going. Dr. Tonya Matthews, currently present CEO of the International African-American Museum, which is in South Carolina. That’s where the laughter break comes in. In terms of thinking about that, we’ll be a year old next month, and I participated in the full spectrum. And I think where I am now is a proponent of authentic and robust diversity of the ecosystem. So you’re you’re going to have spaces like the American Alliance of Museums that need to feel like what it’s going to take to bring in. And then you need to have spaces that understand that you need to center the experts in that story of the conversation. And then you need to have spaces like us, which is a black museum telling black history from a black perspective and a black voice. “This story is about us, welcome. You’re welcome to be a fly on the wall and think in terms of that.”

But all of that needs to coexist. And the challenge that we’ve had is balance, but two things that have come, I think from the learning, which is Grace mentioned the instigating report that talked about just over half of museums had 100% white Boards, but the significant majority of their leadership reported back that diversity was very important to them. Okay, but at least we were at a place where we understood what the right answer was supposed to be. Right? And so depending on your perspective, the space where we are in now, where folks are being a whole lot more honest about what it is they actually want to say and bring to the table has pros and cons in that space.

I think one of the things that I was most excited and most proud about and able to practice when I came in to launch the actual activation of the Facing Change program was succession planning, because I hired Grace in a very, very different role. And so as the program grew, when it was time for me to move on, I was not concerned about the future of the program. And so that I think is one of the first things that we do need to think about in this story.

If we were to stop doing whatever it is we’re doing right now, holding our piece of this puzzle, would that piece of the puzzle be okay while you worked onto the next piece? Understanding that we’re actually in the first or second generation of being able to think like this. Right? We’re in the first or second generation of actually having to do succession planning around this work. And so it was really important for me. I was building the plane while flying and trying to learn this. And so as I watch and see, not just that the program is going on, the program may change or have names or different reports, but that the people that were brought into the work are still in the work. This is exhausting work, it’s rejuvenating work, but to see that folks are still in the work actually says something about the system that we’ve begun to build, because one of the things we were looking at was the hemorrhaging of folks in these spaces.

Now, sometimes we were lucky enough, so folks just go renegade and be like, “I’m still in the space. We don’t the space in my own terms,” which is fantastic, but that was also a particular ethic and a particular level of enthusiasm, but we were losing folks to other spaces. So to see second, third, and fourth generation in this space, I think is one of the things that we’ve learned. And one of the things that I’m excited now is to move from numbers to what we were really trying to say, which is culture, but it was a scary word. It’s a scary word to talk about. We bring people in the room and have all the voices and let’s talk, but we’re really talking about culture change, which is the precursor to the end of status quo. That’s why we don’t talk that way.

But in that first place, we were dealing with numbers because folks could get with the numbers, they were hard to argue with, especially since we have some really good numbers. But now that I’m actually in this space and what I call the rise of the significantly sized institutions that take on these stories. So the International African-American Museum, we are a very big museum. We are about 100,000 square feet, $12.5 million budget. My staff is growing out of the building already. In under a year, we’ve had 153,000 visitors. Okay, yay. But what this actually means though is that we start to take on the mantle of prestige, and prestige is where this culture of privilege lives. So this is the second to last frontier. So we’ve gone for the numbers.

So in our space, I’m having conversations like, “Well, we are in this space, majority black, but culturally white.” And the minute that I say that, folks see it and understand what we’re trying to get at in that space. And so I am excited that we’re having those conversations. Now, it is daunting because then you are really having these kinds of conversations, but we can no longer assume, particularly in our space, and when people come onto these Boards or take onto these roles that they’re already drinking the Kool-Aid, not when you’re that big, not when your museum is in the New York Times every other quarter. There could be very other reasons that folks want to associate. And so it allows us to have those kinds of conversations at that space. And there are a handful of funders who are still using the language around DEI funding or whatever name they put on it, who have matured in the way that they’re giving the funding.

I had a wonderful experience several weeks ago when I was filling out the certification paperwork for our DEI funding from one of our corporate partners. We weren’t certifying the programming. We were certifying our institution. We had to certify that 35% of our leadership and governance was black and 35% of our leadership and governance was female. Now, these were two separate lines. Remember, we used to be black and female, so you could just put everybody in there together and to check all those kinds of boxes, and the numbers got bigger? And so they were asking us to certify that we were actually moving in that direction and in that space. It gave me the opportunity to have a different kind of conversation with my Board.

So remember when foundations used to put that, “What percentage of your Board is giving,” box? It wasn’t attacking the institution. It was so that the leaders of the institution could go to their Board, be like, “Listen, I got to check this box. We’re not filling this box.” Our leadership team was carrying the numbers for our Board, and that was the conversation that I’m now able to bring to the Board that, “Listen, our leadership team is helping us get here. So we are getting, but we’re carrying these numbers and we are now restricted in our ability to hire the best people for the job if I have to keep filling in these buckets on behalf of our government.” And my Board is 30 people. Seriously, we can get this done. So these are some of the interesting ways that I’ve been able to watch the conversation grow. And so I think that is the good news.

I would say the challenging news and the things that I’m still working on is that some of the skills that I feel that I have to bring to the table are all under duties as unassigned. When you are in this space, just being in this space or when you are bringing certain identities to the space, there is a lot more work to do than your job description. And while I am motivated and excited about the fact that I’m in the position to do that, it is too much. It is too much. And so that’s what I’m actually looking at now. I think some recognition of that, and also Board members or team members who can actually see that because we still fall into the space. This will be the last thing that I say, onboarding a new set of Board members.

One of my Board members, very accomplished, very into the space, can see and know, and that’s why I needed him on the Board. We had to do some reorganization while we have a couple of interim roles. And I’m showing him the new report and he does the… “Okay.” And he basically gently tries to tell me that I’m doing that thing that female leaders of color, particularly African-American leaders always do, which is we lead through shenanigans with grace. We lead through high shenanigan with grace, and we take on so much, not because we should, but because we can. And if we do it for too long, folks will start to take advantage of that and assume that we don’t need these things or these roles.

And so he was gently pointing out how temporary what I was showing him needed to be because he could actually see that I had fallen into that zone, that on behalf of the institution I was going to do all of this. And what he was saying is, “No, I want you to let me take that to the larger Board in the conversation,” and say flat out loud, “I don’t think this is sustainable, but please know I’m not talking about your ability to do it. I’m talking about the fact that if we want a sustainable institution, you shouldn’t have to and we shouldn’t let you do that.” So those are also some of those things that I’m now learning and falling into that space.

Grace Stewart:

That was so much great things. I think to follow up on that, one of the things I’ve been thinking about, and you all started talking about this, was the impact it has on you personally to be part of this work. And so all of you have volunteered time, you have worked above and beyond, you’ve started new organizations, you’ve started new museums. How does that impact you and how you experience the world and how you experience your career?

Cecile Shellman:

Wow, how indeed? Right? How could it not? And I think that this work has to be personal first. It absolutely must be internal first if it’s going to have any resonance and if it has viability beyond the self and the institution. And so to be authentic, we have to ask ourselves the question, “What does it truly mean to me to be engaged in work that is inclusive, work that is equitable? What does it mean to me and what does it mean to my colleagues? How do I ensure that we’re not just checking off boxes? How do we ensure that we’re not just doing this because a grant said that we should, because AAM or any other organization suggests that we should or mandates that we should? What does it mean to me personally?”

And so as a practitioner, as a volunteer, as someone who has worked on behalf and for AAM and four museums as far back beginning in the early 1990s, I can say that being someone who’s championing diversity, equity, all of those, whatever those initials are, but obviously the end game, the goal is anti-oppression. The goal is making sure that the right faces are in the right places and that everyone is included. And so the values of empathy, the values of just ensuring that humility is there that respects all of the intersections that my colleagues here have been talking about, that’s impacted me profoundly.

And just to be personal, in the last two or three years, as my health has undergone some surprising twists and turns, I’m just amazed at how practicing what we preach, even if we think we’re preaching to the choir, you never really know unless and until you’re in those circumstances. So we always have to ask ourselves, “What might it be like for someone like…?” Fill in the blank. Right? And speak to and with people not ever for them. Make sure that you’re working in conversation, in collaboration, in community. Those ideals have been strengthened as I have been a full 100% of the time promoter of and practitioner of these principles.

And I do like to say DEAI because I will admit that with the working group that was convened in 2016, 2017, of which I was a member, we deliberated quite vociferously about what these names should be, and we were very specific about diversity. Some people were saying, “We don’t even need to use that anymore. Everyone knows.” First, it was multiculturalism. First, it was this. Diversity is such a hackneyed word, let’s not use it.” And some of us insisted, “We have to because some people do feel that the time for that word or that concept is gone.” But there are many people who never give it a thought and who think that white-centered institutions are the only institutions that can be and should be in the, “Museum world.” Right? “Museums should be this way and not that way.”

So diversity is really looking at all the similarities and differences across the continuum, across race, and I will say across gender, across all of the disability, ability, across everything, and being very specific in how we make sure that these spaces are for us too. And certainly, we do need to center people who we, as those practiced in policies that have excluded others. We need to see how we have been exclusive, how we have excluded others. And it doesn’t matter who we are. If we have been unfortunately and unwittingly practicing these values and being exclusionary, yes, we absolutely must champion people who we have excluded.

So in a nutshell, that’s really how it’s affected me. I’m even more of an advocate. I’m more passionate. I’m more empathetic, I’m more sympathetic. I have more compassion, more dedication, and I’m willing to help whoever in whatever way possible. It’s my life’s work.

Stephanie Johnson-Cunningham:

I think for me, quite honestly, this work takes a toll. It’s a lot of sacrifice leaving full-time jobs to start your own non-profit organization or organization that centers racial inequity. But I would also say, and speaking my truth, I’ve learned so much. I’ve learned so much. Born and raised in New York City, and I think a lot of my perspective and experience is very New York City based, and I think even thinking about what the museum field is and who the museum field is for, a lot of times we can easy way out, say it’s a very white, predominantly white field, but when you really look at it and think about the museum field is not actually a field that the general public is a part of. It is an institution that you have to really think about that is a certain education level, a certain demographic background, maybe economics has to play.

So thinking more critically about that I think has definitely opened my eyes to see that it is a very particular part of the country, and also demographics that do museum, because I’m learning more and more that when people in the US think about their leisure time, they’re not necessarily going to museums is not necessarily always number one. And also, if you look at surveys that has been done with the general public, people think museums are important, but do they find them as a place that’s relevant to their everyday experience? No, not necessarily. So I think in learning all those things is important.

And also, I mentioned funding earlier too. I think it’s so easy to point fingers at larger, predominantly white institutions in the work that they do and it seemingly being exclusive, but we have to look at where the funding comes from. And so for me, being from New York City, there’s what you call the CIGs, that’s the Cultural Institution Group. And you’ll see that the Met, these large institutions like our botanical gardens, they’re all funded by city funds, which is great, which is amazing. But you notice that the majority of funding for arts and culture goes to these large institutions. And there isn’t equity even in arts funding in New York City.

So when you go to community institutions, even though the Studio Museum in Harlem is one of the most known museums in the field and outside the field, they don’t get funding in the way that a lot of other institutions funded. Now, they do a really great job with external funding as well, and they’re also a part of the CIG, but if you look at how organizations are funded, even within the CIG, it’s only like 34 institutions, there’s also inequity within that small body one. But then when you look at the larger city and you start pinpointing different institutions not a part of that, then you get to see, “Wait a minute, these institutions are getting more funded. These institutions are getting more support from the government, and also private foundations as well.”

And then if you go even further out around the entire US, again, you’ll see those similarities as well. And then I spoke about some of the funding going to other institutions for DEI, and they’re calling me about it when I was at the African-American Museum, but also speaking to the funders about that too. Like, “Hey guys, you are giving institutions these funds to do this work and we’re already doing this work. And when you fund us, because we’re a small institution, you’re only giving us a small amount. You’re not awarding us for the incredible work that we do with so little. Instead, you punish us and you give us just a little bit of money and you give the other institutions huge sums of money.” And again, that’s both government funding and also private foundations do that as well.

And so when we did our report, we created a report, HueArts NYC, looking at institutions of color, which are mostly located in communities of color. While we see a lot of institutions in New York City growing bigger in size, a lot of these smaller institutions are not also necessarily interested in even growing bigger in size, but growing deeper with community, needing that funding to go deeper and not seeing that support, also not realizing that the work that they do that goes beyond arts and culture should also be funded as well. So for me, again, doing this work has allowed me to learn so much about the intricacy of how things work.

My husband is also a legislator as well. So speaking to him about funding and where funding goes, in New York City, we just got a huge budget cut in the arts and we were able to get some back. And also the fact that a lot of our funds go to the Police Department, which again, the police for my community is very important. But again, just understanding that has been so crucial for my work. So like I said, it’s been a toll, but again, just learning and the last 10-year anniversary coming February 2025 has just revealed so much of how inequity works. And I think a lot of times we address it from the face value and not get into the weed of things.

Dr. Tonya Mattews:

I think for me, I’m going to go probably high introspective with the question. And I think that if you’re going to be in this work, in whole or in part, you are going to have to learn to master the art of knowing that you matter, simply because you matter. So there’s a lot in this space. If you’re going to rate it by funding, you’re going to have some self-esteem issues. If you’re going to rate it by scope and scale, okay, that’s again going to be a challenge. If you’re going to rate it by being seen by the very nature of this, we are working at work that often makes us invisible. If you’re going to do it by the level of impact that you have, if you’re in this work, you have the best understanding of the problem and you know that there is always more work to do. Right?

So part of this gets into this space of, I would say intentional self-care. We all know self-care. I know you all at least got four or five books. This is a museum conference. We probably wrote half of them. Okay. So we understand this self-care, but what I have found about this self-care mantra is that we have then generalized it. If you are hungry, you eat. If you break a leg, you don’t eat. Right? If you’re tired, you don’t eat. If you got a cold, you don’t just eat. If you have a flu and you’re over at my grandmother’s, then yes, you do eat. But that’s very different. That’s very different. That’s Southern.

And so as we’re thinking about this, the self-care has to be as specific as what it is you are fixing and caring and repairing. There are many different ways in which this work depletes, and there’s nothing wrong with depletion. We don’t get mad at the length of the day because at the end of it, we’re tired. We know to go to bed and rest. And so the intentional self-care is actually taking the moment. Okay, so what is being drained? Is it just exhaustion? Okay, pure exhaustion, that’s vacation. Is it just sleepy? Okay, take a nap. Is it hungry? Hungry for what? Am I missing my community? Am I missing my peer? Am I missing my reinforcement? Is it capacity? Am I working inefficiently because I don’t actually have the skills? I can do this because the bar was set so low, but I want to do it better.

So thinking about how we are self-caring. When we are feeding ourselves, why we are feeding ourselves and what we are feeding into at the moment. And there will be particular times when you need particular things. Right? If you have come to a point where you are now very publicly and very visibly doing this, you may find that your self-care is a cheerleading squad. Right? Because you’re there and you’re getting a lot of the contradictions. You’re getting a lot of the pushback. And what you need to do is you need to turn around and look into multiple mirrors like, “Nailed it. You’re doing amazing.” You’re doing fantastic.” If you are running around too much, my executive admin is literally laughing at me right now when I say, “Then you need people to tell you to take stuff off your calendar,” because I just keep sticking it back on. But you do need folks in terms of that.

And so the intentionality of my self-care has had to increase with the impact that I’m attempting to have because it becomes a lot more work. And one of the keys to that has been the asking of and accepting help. And we talk about, “Got to ask for help, got to accept help.” For a lot of us, we’re going to hire a new contractor, we’re going to get a new expert to come in and make a new form, a new chart, a new Excel sheet for us. And that’s me asking for help. I think one of the things that I definitely saw, and so the work around bringing the International African-American Museum online, is I was quick and was like, “Oh, no, no, no. It’s not just me going in that room right there. Who am I supposed to ask? What is happening?” So in terms of doing that, but the other side is being able to pause when help is coming at you unrequested. It’s cultural.

So being down in the south, everybody’s praying for you, and some people want to take you to dinner so they can get very specific about what it is that they see. But being able to pause and recognize that help that’s coming at you in that space. And so what I would say that the work is depleting and exhausting, like a really good workout. If you go to the gym and you feel nothing coming out of the gym, you check the box, but you know, you don’t get to eat tomorrow because that was not a real workout in that space. And so it’s time to move away from the idea that just because you’re exhausted at the end of the day means that the work was wrong or too hard. It has to do with whether or not we can intentionally and continually replenish on time. And I would say that I’m still learning. I’m preaching to the choir myself right now, but that I think is one of the things that has become essential to me as I’ve decided to stay in the work.

Grace Stewart:

That was all really great information that I personally should also take to heart. So you’ve shared a lot about how you got involved in the work, why it’s important to you, the impact it’s had. So let’s pivot a little bit and talk about the work itself. So over these last several years and the many years before that that you’ve been doing this work, what are some of the things that you feel proud of, that you have seen progress, that you feel like have been successes? What’s the progress that you are the happiest with that we’ve made thus far?

Dr. Tonya Mattews:

Well, [inaudible 00:38:40].

Grace Stewart:

Thank you.

Dr. Tonya Mattews:

In terms of that, I think that was very important to me. There have been one or two times and I was too busy to do anything else, but I knew. So for example, I was part of an organization that was in the process of bringing on their first African-American male leader. And one of the issues was going to be that we did not have a Board Chair, and I did not have time, and I stepped up to that because I knew it was important. Being a Board Chair is hard work. I’m not going to be any nicer to my current Board Chair because you got to hold them. But still, I did learn, I think, to be in that space.

And I would also say that coming into Charleston, South Carolina, I inherited an organization that had a lot of aspiration and just a little bit of faith. So we had really big goals of things we wanted to do, but there was a sense there wasn’t faith, belief that would actually be done. And I think sometimes we forget that that is actually really important, that folks have to feel like someone believes that they can do that and that the community can actually do that. And so that has been really, really important. And for better or for worse, eight times out of 10 there is the either welcome or resistant understanding that a particular voice needs to be in the room. Now, whether or not the room was prepared for the voice, has the process to include the voice, is going to actually let the voice voice itself. But I would say that I have been in spaces and I have been through times when that was not a given, that these conversations would just go and would just happen and just be inflicted.

So I would say that that is definitely one of the things that I see. And I would say I think we are getting a little bit better at talking about the range of folks that need to be included without diluting the conversation. So we’ve had these conversations where these definitions of who needs to be in the room is so broad that the problem that brought us into the room in the first place is no longer the conversation on the table. And I think that too, in many ways to the work that you’ve done, understanding that you can bring in multiple perspectives and backgrounds into the room to still work on the one problem because those multiple backgrounds and perspectives can bring something to that problem. You don’t necessarily have to expand, and now we’re trying to solve everything all at once.

And so I’ve seen a little bit of intentionality and a little bit of progress into understanding that, “Yeah, we’re going to diversify the room around this one problem right here. This right here, this is the problem. We would like to know what you and you and they and we and us all think with this one problem, this one right here.” Because I think that the consequence of not doing that is that we have solve everything. And then we wonder why it’s starting to look like the 1970s in my country again, because we stray from that core problem. So there are days when I actually see progress towards that, that we’re bringing lots and lots of folks into the room and still gently demanding that we’re working on this core problem. And I think that has benefits for the folks in the room, but also for the problem we’re trying to solve.

Stephanie Johnson-Cunningham:

Creating something 10 years ago, and it’s still being in the world. I’m hella proud of that. I was eating oodles and noodles for a long time to actually bring it into this world. But within the last few years, getting significant funding to create the reports that I’ve mentioned to you, HueArts NYC, looking at the New York City arts and cultural landscape as it relates to organizations of color, also looking at museums across the country as well, which is really exciting. So really proud of that.

I would also say too, really proud of the fact that so many people from so many different places are supporters of Museum Hue. You were talking about the cheerleading squad behind you, and I thought about that and I was like, “Yes, that is definitely something that has been so important for Museum Hue.” We have so many supporters and the fact that when we started our membership platform, almost immediately, about 400 museums across the country signed up. And so that was a huge proud moment. And then also having hundreds of individual members as well has been a huge support, because first, it was hard to get 501(c)(3) status because we have the name museum. And in New York City, you got to go through the Department of Regions, through Department of Education. So it took a long time to get that.

So to be able to get support from the fields to start, and of course, American Alliance of Museums also signed up too, was I think really critical and important for me to know that I had cheerleaders, that folks from all different backgrounds believed in this work, and to this day, attend our programs, attend our workshops. I haven’t been around for about a year or so because I just had a baby as well. And to come back and to receive so much love from folks also has just been really nice. So I think just having the opportunity to create something that hopefully lives beyond me has been really amazing, and it’s something that I’m really proud of, of the fact that just introducing just a new perspective or expanding on perspectives that folks have been developing has been really fulfilling.

Cecile Shellman:

For my part, I would say that there are two major, I would say, wins, benefits that have come out of this. And those are small words for really, really big things. And the first is the friendships and the relationships that are built through this work. And even on this very day, just thinking about Dr. T as a consultant with Facing Change, but even prior to that, and continuing, having her send me an RFP. Just, “Hey, maybe you’d be interested in this as a consultant.” Just connecting in those ways, knowing that you have that affinity with people and people care about you.

Stephanie, having met maybe 10, 12 years ago at one of these very conferences and finding some commonalities amongst us, her group and people I was working with and her coming to one of the sessions that I worked. And then our friendship as it’s continued since then. My bringing her to Pittsburgh and then just watching her business and career flourish, it’s been a joy.

And Grace. Grace and I worked together several years ago, and to see her journey and to have her work with me and shepherd me along too, and have things come full circle, it’s been wonderful. And not only these fine humans, but even in this very room, several of you are people I’ve known for many, many years. And through our association, so many great things have happened. I was asked to contribute to the first book published by AAM on diversity, equity, accessibility and inclusion, co-edited by Laura Lott and Dr. John Etabetch Cole. And that was a really great opportunity, and it was very meaningful in my life. And since then, I published another book, a book that I had written about diversity, equity, accessibility and inclusion for museums. And another book is about to be published in six weeks. I’m excited about that too.

And then all of my clients and just the wonderful associations, priceless, absolutely priceless. The depth and the breadth of those relationships, the fellows on the Facing Change team, these are just lifelong friendships as we’ve grappled with many different, very thorny problems and situations. Some of them confidential, some of them meaningful to us as individuals with families and challenges, and some of them that are broad across the museum spectrum.

And then the second thing would be just realizing and noticing how difficult this is to initiate. So many individuals and museums are having challenges that sometimes it’s embarrassing to even report because it should be easy. They say, “Well, it’s just about not being racist or sexist or not being ableist, so why should it be so hard for me?” But then when you think, “My organization might not really want to give money to this,” or they think it’s too political. Right? We say museums are not neutral, but do we mean it? Right? And seeing the courage that it takes for maybe a director to do something that maybe someone on their Board might not like, or for a staff member to timidly raise a hand and say, “This is not equitable, this practice that we’re doing right here and these workers who aren’t being paid enough, and these demands that we have, we’re not going to let this slide. We need to do this.” And it just really warms my heart.

And I will say there are people who have left the field entirely. There are people who have left their jobs. And I’ll say, that’s a win for me sometimes because you shouldn’t stay in situations that continue to harm you. But at the same time, having the courage to work through these challenges and to see the museum field grow, that’s where I derive my strength and why I continue in the work, and that’s very powerful and meaningful to me.

Grace Stewart:

I love all of those things. I think the relationships are so important, all of the things that we’re seeing. I started by saying that that 2017 report where we saw that about half of museums had 100% white Boards. Our latest report that just came out a couple of weeks ago, the numbers sounded 27%. So that still means that there are 27% of museums that have 100% white Boards. So there’s still plenty of work to do, but we are seeing that that number is shifting, and that that kind of work only happens with real intentionality and a real strong ecosystem and people working on this problem from many, many different directions. So we are seeing some movement, and so I think that there is a lot to celebrate.

And then on the other side of that, there’s still a lot of work to be done. So given the work that we’ve done, what do you think we’ve fallen short on? What are the things that we didn’t quite tackle that maybe we should? Let’s start there. What didn’t get addressed in the work that we’ve done so far?

Dr. Tonya Mattews:

So I’m almost pivoting onto what you’re saying. Can I pay equity? Okay, and part of that is because we actually have had some very intentional conversations about frontline, in the middle, because we are non-profits, but as we have worked to diversify at the top, we have not talked about the impact that that has had on the pay scale at the top. So I, as an African-American female, you can bring all the statistics, make, whatever, I don’t know, four cents on the dollar, whatever it is, just in terms of that. But that means though that I set the ceiling from my entire institution. Right? So as we are diversifying the top, if we are not addressing these conversations around pay equity at all levels, including, if not especially at the top, you’re creating a new ceiling for the entire field as the field begins to diversify in that space. So I think that is the one hand that I would say.

And the second thing that I would say in terms of next moves, the language we’ve used up on this platform has been around courage. “Folks need the courage, take the courage, create courageous spaces.” I do lean into that. I think the idea that any portion of this creates a safe space is an illusion, and I think that that sets people up for… Failure is not the word I want. It sets people up, I think for spiritual harm in telling them that, “We are working to create a safe space.” And that is not what is possible. But for me, what I tell folks is I’m not as courageous as I am well-loved. This goes back to getting your circle and your army to understand what’s needed in courageous spaces, because it does take courage. It does take support. It does take that.

And so I think that our… Sometimes, not for everyone, but sometimes our overuse of the promise of a safe space has led people into spaces that they weren’t prepared for. And I think they could have handled the space that required courage if we had simply said that that’s what needed behind the store in the first place. So that’s where I’d like to see us move a little bit more as well.

Stephanie Johnson-Cunningham:

I think I’d agree with pay equity. I think that’s so important. And also, of course, funding of institutions. I think what we’ve seen largely, again, coming from New York City, a lot of my peers who start out at a lot of African-American or Latinx institutions can’t afford to stay at these institutions. So a lot of our celebrated curators, black and Latinx curators and museum educators that we know largely are first mentored and nurtured at African-American museums within their communities, but they can’t afford to stay. And so I think that it’s so important that if we are talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, that we think about that opportunity. Folks should be able to go wherever they want to, of course. But also, these institutions should also be able to provide a living wage for their staff. And largely, a lot of them cannot. A lot of them operate in the red.

And I think that’s so important to note that a lot of the celebrated… And I didn’t even say artists, a lot of celebrated artists, curators, educators, and even executives that we see going to these larger institutions first come from these very small community-centered institutions that can’t afford to keep them. So I think that’s really important, I think to address. Again, when we’re talking about parity, when we’re talking about greater reciprocity, and we’re talking about also a brain drain from our communities as well, I think that needs to be addressed also.

Dr. Tonya Mattews:

Absolutely.

Cecile Shellman:

Thank you. Yes, that’s so true. And I think from my part, one thing that could have been done a little better is assessing readiness for the work and for all the challenges that come along with it, because it’s not for the faint of heart. It’s going to be something that you’re all going to need to commit to for the rest of your lives. And in your lives, I think I started out with this thought, and I’ll end with it too, but it’s about your personal life as well as the outer life. And it’s not going to have any resonance or any continuation if it’s not internalized first. And some people refuse to do that. It’s really hard to lay yourself bare in front of your co-workers and their teams you manage or lead, and maybe acknowledge some truths about yourself that you may not want to share otherwise. Right? Or maybe not want to plumb those depths and understand how you too may have some feelings about the work you chose and why you’re perhaps in spaces that are not as welcoming as they could be.

So some of the Facing Change organizations with which we worked were maybe ready on paper. Maybe they were the ones always stepping up to accept this application or that grant and these funds. And yet they maybe weren’t the ones who are… I don’t want to speak for any of them. Everyone I think was transformed in some way or another, but what we could have improved on was maybe determining different ways to evaluate and assess how ready they would be to go the distance. And there were things that we actually all learned as practitioners, as fellows, as leaders. We also learned how to better ready ourselves, how to steady ourselves, and how to initiate this marathon and to commit truly, deeply, and for the rest of time.

Grace Stewart:

Well, thank you so much for everything that you’ve shared. I know we could spend a year learning from all of you, but I really appreciate your time that you spent with us today. So thank you.